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	<title>Comments on: Loudness War &#8211; Louder is better? Why CDs are reduced in dynamics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/</link>
	<description>Ingo Raven's blog about the Mark Knopfler guitar style and electric guitar in general</description>
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		<title>By: Earl Vickers</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4642</link>
		<dc:creator>Earl Vickers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4642</guid>
		<description>I gave a talk on the loudness war at the recent Audio Engineering Society convention. The presentation looks at the loudness war in terms of game theory and gives evidence questioning the idea that louder recordings sell better:

http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave a talk on the loudness war at the recent Audio Engineering Society convention. The presentation looks at the loudness war in terms of game theory and gives evidence questioning the idea that louder recordings sell better:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/?referer=');">http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/loudnesswar/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jean-François</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4520</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean-François</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4520</guid>
		<description>OK, seems I was wrong, again :)
I had heard that records on vinyls had more dynamics than on CD, but in fact I guess it was been talking about music style : &quot;old&quot; music in the vinyl age was more &quot;dynamic&quot; (classical, jazz, ...) than music in the CD age (mostly due to FM radio diffusion). 
So apologize for giving wrong infos :)
However, many people continue to claim the &quot;best sound quality&quot; of many vinyls over many CDs

About the aim to reproduce the analog master tape as faithfully as possible, the marketing communication with « remastered » catalog is often based on « you will finally hear the Beatles/Stones/Doors as they really sounded at the time » or such messages.
I’ve always thought that remastering with better converters was to approach more the « original » sound, by amending it the least possible, adding minimal audio artifacts.
But maybe I’m wrong and you’re right. But, in my mind « make it sound more modern » would have been remixed them, and not only remaster them.




About the « crunchier sound » on Communique  :
I have listen it again followed by album one yesterday, and indeed, your are right, again :)
I must add some precisions here to explain why I have this impression since many years (even if it’s not the real topic of this article :)) :

 At first, I must admit I haven’t listen to orginals albums since a long time (apart for writing the gear pages :)). When I want to listen DS, I listen to bootlegs :). So my « sound memory » of originals studios album is from 20 years or so.

 When I discovered DS in 1988 (yes, I was abit late…) it was with first Brothers in arms (especially Walk of life, which I guess was more a big hit than MFN, here in France), and then Alchemy, which I listen to for all the summer. So my first DS sounds were « rock » sounds, « crunchy » « bluesy », with more drive than 78-79 tones.

 At the end of august, I purchased album one and Communique. At first listen, I found them less exciting than rocking Alchemy. Don’t blame me, I’ve discovered their subtles qualities shortly after… :)
And then, my first impression was that songs like Lady writer, Angel of Mercy (I love this song :)), SHS,  were more « rockin’ », more « agressive » than album one. But, yes, it can also been due to David’s Rhythm part on lady Writer, or FS-1 on SHS.
The intro on News doesn’t sound so  « clear » to me, well I mean less clear than e.g. In the gallery, but indeed, it’s not crunchier, it’s just a « rounder » sound (I don’t know if it’s the word, but thta’s what we say in french).

I totally agree about Lions Southbound (that’s why I didn’t quote it :)), for Waterline  and Southbound I must admit that I didn’t pay attention to it for years, but after reading you, I herad it yesterday ! Music can be re-discovered all the time ! 
For Sultans and Six blade knife, I prefer his live tone at the same time (Sultans-Chorus was the first boot I heard, so I kept this « sound memory »)

Then, after thinking, I realise that Communique has sounded « crunchier » to me, maybe due to the general compression and a more « rounder » sound, maybe also due to Mark’s playing which I find a little more « driving », maybe due to other parts (David’s rhythm on Lady writer and WDYTYG), and maybe because when I’m thinking about Communique, the first tune that came to my mind is Angel of mercy with has obviously the crunchiest lead tone in a studio song from the 78-79 period ! :)

Sorry for being long, and maybe doesn’t it interest many people, but I can’t stop me writing about that ! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, seems I was wrong, again <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I had heard that records on vinyls had more dynamics than on CD, but in fact I guess it was been talking about music style : &#8220;old&#8221; music in the vinyl age was more &#8220;dynamic&#8221; (classical, jazz, &#8230;) than music in the CD age (mostly due to FM radio diffusion).<br />
So apologize for giving wrong infos <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
However, many people continue to claim the &#8220;best sound quality&#8221; of many vinyls over many CDs</p>
<p>About the aim to reproduce the analog master tape as faithfully as possible, the marketing communication with « remastered » catalog is often based on « you will finally hear the Beatles/Stones/Doors as they really sounded at the time » or such messages.<br />
I’ve always thought that remastering with better converters was to approach more the « original » sound, by amending it the least possible, adding minimal audio artifacts.<br />
But maybe I’m wrong and you’re right. But, in my mind « make it sound more modern » would have been remixed them, and not only remaster them.</p>
<p>About the « crunchier sound » on Communique  :<br />
I have listen it again followed by album one yesterday, and indeed, your are right, again <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I must add some precisions here to explain why I have this impression since many years (even if it’s not the real topic of this article <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) :</p>
<p> At first, I must admit I haven’t listen to orginals albums since a long time (apart for writing the gear pages <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ). When I want to listen DS, I listen to bootlegs <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . So my « sound memory » of originals studios album is from 20 years or so.</p>
<p> When I discovered DS in 1988 (yes, I was abit late…) it was with first Brothers in arms (especially Walk of life, which I guess was more a big hit than MFN, here in France), and then Alchemy, which I listen to for all the summer. So my first DS sounds were « rock » sounds, « crunchy » « bluesy », with more drive than 78-79 tones.</p>
<p> At the end of august, I purchased album one and Communique. At first listen, I found them less exciting than rocking Alchemy. Don’t blame me, I’ve discovered their subtles qualities shortly after… <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
And then, my first impression was that songs like Lady writer, Angel of Mercy (I love this song <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ), SHS,  were more « rockin’ », more « agressive » than album one. But, yes, it can also been due to David’s Rhythm part on lady Writer, or FS-1 on SHS.<br />
The intro on News doesn’t sound so  « clear » to me, well I mean less clear than e.g. In the gallery, but indeed, it’s not crunchier, it’s just a « rounder » sound (I don’t know if it’s the word, but thta’s what we say in french).</p>
<p>I totally agree about Lions Southbound (that’s why I didn’t quote it <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ), for Waterline  and Southbound I must admit that I didn’t pay attention to it for years, but after reading you, I herad it yesterday ! Music can be re-discovered all the time !<br />
For Sultans and Six blade knife, I prefer his live tone at the same time (Sultans-Chorus was the first boot I heard, so I kept this « sound memory »)</p>
<p>Then, after thinking, I realise that Communique has sounded « crunchier » to me, maybe due to the general compression and a more « rounder » sound, maybe also due to Mark’s playing which I find a little more « driving », maybe due to other parts (David’s rhythm on Lady writer and WDYTYG), and maybe because when I’m thinking about Communique, the first tune that came to my mind is Angel of mercy with has obviously the crunchiest lead tone in a studio song from the 78-79 period ! <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Sorry for being long, and maybe doesn’t it interest many people, but I can’t stop me writing about that ! <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ingo</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4517</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4517</guid>
		<description>First, vinyl has much less dynamics than CDs (I think just about 50 dB compared to often much more than 80db with digital media). Secondly, it is important to understand what dynamics means in this context: it is simply the difference between the lowest and the loudest signal you can record (without low signals being lost behind noise and loud signals exceeding the 0dB threshold and thus causing distortion).

However, talking about the possible dynamic range of a medium misses the point here because with pop music normally the dynamic range is **artificially reduced** anyway.

Remastered CDs often don&#039;t have a bigger dynamic range but often a smaller. Modern mastering more and more developped toward making a recording hotter ( = louder) than competitors, which implies a reduced dynamic range (maximum loudness would be to stay just a bit below 0 dB all the time, in other words no dynamics at all !) . If you compare the old Dire Straits CDs to the remastered ones, you will notice that the new ones are louder. 

Digital mastering units allow you to compress peaks much more efficient than those old analog compressors which always have an attack time &gt; 0 ms (the time a compressor needs to react to a peak), so they are simply faster, and they produce less audible artefacts. 

You are right to say that the converter quality of modern equipment is better than converters from the mid 80ies. But I don&#039;t think the aim  was to reproduce the analog master tape as faithfully as possible, but instead to process it to make it sound more modern. They also reduced some treble on the remastered first CD which was said to be very trebly (if this is bad or not is just a matter of taste).

Strange that you say Communique sounds crunchier to you, I always have the impression that there is more (subtle) distortion on album one (e.g. Down to the Waterline, Lions, Southbound lead,..) than on Communique. Especially Once Upon a time, News, WDYTYG, Single Handed Sailor sound totally clean to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, vinyl has much less dynamics than CDs (I think just about 50 dB compared to often much more than 80db with digital media). Secondly, it is important to understand what dynamics means in this context: it is simply the difference between the lowest and the loudest signal you can record (without low signals being lost behind noise and loud signals exceeding the 0dB threshold and thus causing distortion).</p>
<p>However, talking about the possible dynamic range of a medium misses the point here because with pop music normally the dynamic range is **artificially reduced** anyway.</p>
<p>Remastered CDs often don&#8217;t have a bigger dynamic range but often a smaller. Modern mastering more and more developped toward making a recording hotter ( = louder) than competitors, which implies a reduced dynamic range (maximum loudness would be to stay just a bit below 0 dB all the time, in other words no dynamics at all !) . If you compare the old Dire Straits CDs to the remastered ones, you will notice that the new ones are louder. </p>
<p>Digital mastering units allow you to compress peaks much more efficient than those old analog compressors which always have an attack time &gt; 0 ms (the time a compressor needs to react to a peak), so they are simply faster, and they produce less audible artefacts. </p>
<p>You are right to say that the converter quality of modern equipment is better than converters from the mid 80ies. But I don&#8217;t think the aim  was to reproduce the analog master tape as faithfully as possible, but instead to process it to make it sound more modern. They also reduced some treble on the remastered first CD which was said to be very trebly (if this is bad or not is just a matter of taste).</p>
<p>Strange that you say Communique sounds crunchier to you, I always have the impression that there is more (subtle) distortion on album one (e.g. Down to the Waterline, Lions, Southbound lead,..) than on Communique. Especially Once Upon a time, News, WDYTYG, Single Handed Sailor sound totally clean to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean-François</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4515</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean-François</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4515</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s common known that vynils had more dynamics than CDs.
in the late 80ies, when the majors converted all old stuff from 60ies and 70ies, they used the gear from that time, i.e.converters from late 80ies.
A very well known example is the Beatles catalog, which had disapointed many fans, due to a poor sound quality (e.g. magical mystery tour).
In mid 90ies, most of &quot;old&quot; artists had their catalog being remastered (Clapton, Hendrix, Who, Yes, Genesis, Doors, Stones...and of course Dire Straits) I guess they used a better gear, i.e. better converters, and I had always thought that these remastered CDs were more &quot;loyal&quot; to the vinyls, i.e. with a sound closer to the orginal than the 80ies ones.
Indeed, most of Beatles fans agree to say that the remastered albums (from last year or so) are far better than the ones from the 80ies, (even if there&#039;s a lot of debate between mono-mix fans and stereo-mix fans)
So I&#039;m a bit surprised to learn that firts CD had more dynamics than remastered ones. I thought that it was otherwise : in the 80ies, the gear was not able to restituate all the dynamics of the vynils, but with technic progress, I thought that actual 
converters (I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s the right english word, but you know what I mean) were more &quot;loyal&quot; to the original sound and could get a better result, closer to the original master tape.




About Communique, I had always found it indeed sweeter, smoother than album one, and that&#039;s why I&#039;ve always preferred it. :)

I remember Ingo saying on Mknews some years ago that &quot;sound on album one is clear like water&quot;

Indeed, exactly, but I find that Mark&#039;s guitar sound is &quot;too much&quot; clear on e.g. six blade knife (I prefer a crunchy tone like ine live at the BBC), and I like his tone on Angel of Mercy, SHS, or Lady Writer, more than on Sultans (I prefer his tone on Chorus 78).
Maybe I confuse a little bit between guitar sound and album general sound, but I remember that it was my first impression when I discovered these 2 firsts albums : a little more &quot;gain&quot;, more &quot;crunchy&quot; on Communique, and that was what I liked !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s common known that vynils had more dynamics than CDs.<br />
in the late 80ies, when the majors converted all old stuff from 60ies and 70ies, they used the gear from that time, i.e.converters from late 80ies.<br />
A very well known example is the Beatles catalog, which had disapointed many fans, due to a poor sound quality (e.g. magical mystery tour).<br />
In mid 90ies, most of &#8220;old&#8221; artists had their catalog being remastered (Clapton, Hendrix, Who, Yes, Genesis, Doors, Stones&#8230;and of course Dire Straits) I guess they used a better gear, i.e. better converters, and I had always thought that these remastered CDs were more &#8220;loyal&#8221; to the vinyls, i.e. with a sound closer to the orginal than the 80ies ones.<br />
Indeed, most of Beatles fans agree to say that the remastered albums (from last year or so) are far better than the ones from the 80ies, (even if there&#8217;s a lot of debate between mono-mix fans and stereo-mix fans)<br />
So I&#8217;m a bit surprised to learn that firts CD had more dynamics than remastered ones. I thought that it was otherwise : in the 80ies, the gear was not able to restituate all the dynamics of the vynils, but with technic progress, I thought that actual<br />
converters (I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s the right english word, but you know what I mean) were more &#8220;loyal&#8221; to the original sound and could get a better result, closer to the original master tape.</p>
<p>About Communique, I had always found it indeed sweeter, smoother than album one, and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;ve always preferred it. <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I remember Ingo saying on Mknews some years ago that &#8220;sound on album one is clear like water&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed, exactly, but I find that Mark&#8217;s guitar sound is &#8220;too much&#8221; clear on e.g. six blade knife (I prefer a crunchy tone like ine live at the BBC), and I like his tone on Angel of Mercy, SHS, or Lady Writer, more than on Sultans (I prefer his tone on Chorus 78).<br />
Maybe I confuse a little bit between guitar sound and album general sound, but I remember that it was my first impression when I discovered these 2 firsts albums : a little more &#8220;gain&#8221;, more &#8220;crunchy&#8221; on Communique, and that was what I liked !</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff - Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4513</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff - Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4513</guid>
		<description>Really? All the songs on my vinyl have the same balance as the cd you&#039;re Ingo but , only wdytyg has the redused in volume lead guitar. I don&#039;t know..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really? All the songs on my vinyl have the same balance as the cd you&#8217;re Ingo but , only wdytyg has the redused in volume lead guitar. I don&#8217;t know..</p>
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		<title>By: Ingo</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4512</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4512</guid>
		<description>The CD and the remastered CD should still be the same mix as the original vinyl, they were only mastered differently but the mix (and thus the individual instruments volumes) was the same.

I have all three version, too, and don&#039;t think that the guitar volume on WDYTYG (or anything else) was different. 

It might however be that if you e.g. reduce high or low frequencies in the mastering process, some cymbals /hihats or the bass seems lower in volume, and thus the guitars or vocals appear a bit louder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CD and the remastered CD should still be the same mix as the original vinyl, they were only mastered differently but the mix (and thus the individual instruments volumes) was the same.</p>
<p>I have all three version, too, and don&#8217;t think that the guitar volume on WDYTYG (or anything else) was different. </p>
<p>It might however be that if you e.g. reduce high or low frequencies in the mastering process, some cymbals /hihats or the bass seems lower in volume, and thus the guitars or vocals appear a bit louder.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff - Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4511</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff - Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4511</guid>
		<description>On the communique vinyl I have,I can also hear sweeter guitar tone with more harmonic overtones. Especially on once upon a time in the west. I like it very much, only with the wdytyg I&#039;m dissapointed because the nice guitar&#039;s volume is too low compare to the other instruments. On the cd they fix that - much louder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the communique vinyl I have,I can also hear sweeter guitar tone with more harmonic overtones. Especially on once upon a time in the west. I like it very much, only with the wdytyg I&#8217;m dissapointed because the nice guitar&#8217;s volume is too low compare to the other instruments. On the cd they fix that &#8211; much louder.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingo</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4508</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4508</guid>
		<description>Theoretically the un-remastered CDs have in fact more dynamics, that is why their volume is lower (more dynamics = lower overall volume). The heavy compression on Communique is on both however :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theoretically the un-remastered CDs have in fact more dynamics, that is why their volume is lower (more dynamics = lower overall volume). The heavy compression on Communique is on both however <img src='http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jean-François</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4503</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean-François</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4503</guid>
		<description>Ingo, do you mean that those un-remastered CDs have more dynamics than the remastered ones ?
I have the remastered ones, and I thought that the sound was more clean, more &quot;pure&quot;, less noisy.
Now, I&#039;m a bit confused by what you say. Were those old CDs not as bad as it&#039;s common said ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ingo, do you mean that those un-remastered CDs have more dynamics than the remastered ones ?<br />
I have the remastered ones, and I thought that the sound was more clean, more &#8220;pure&#8221;, less noisy.<br />
Now, I&#8217;m a bit confused by what you say. Were those old CDs not as bad as it&#8217;s common said ?</p>
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		<title>By: Ingo</title>
		<link>http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/07/loudness-war-louder-is-better-why-cds-are-reduced-in-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-4502</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/?p=388#comment-4502</guid>
		<description>I would definitely keep those un-remastered CDs (although Communique was heavily compressed on the original version as well)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would definitely keep those un-remastered CDs (although Communique was heavily compressed on the original version as well)</p>
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